Stepper 0.9 deg - very noise

General Discussion
1

Hi,
I tried replacing the X/Y stepper with a 0.9 degrees (400 steps).
Unfortunately, it is terribly noisy compared to a stepper of 1.8 degrees (200 steps).

Configuration for 1.8 deg

[stepper_x]
step_pin: PA0
dir_pin: PC15
enable_pin: !PC11
microsteps: 16
full_steps_per_rotation: 200
rotation_distance: 40
endstop_pin: ^PB12
position_endstop: -52
position_min: -52
position_max: 240
homing_speed: 50

[tmc2209 stepper_x]
uart_pin: PC14
run_current: 0.600
stealthchop_threshold: 9999

Configuration for 0.9 deg

[stepper_x]
step_pin: PA0
dir_pin: PC15
enable_pin: !PC11
microsteps: 16
full_steps_per_rotation: 400
rotation_distance: 40
endstop_pin: ^PB12
position_endstop: -52
position_min: -52
position_max: 240
homing_speed: 50

[tmc2209 stepper_x]
uart_pin: PC14
run_current: 0.600
stealthchop_threshold: 9999

Here are the noise comparison videos.
stepper 1.8: Stepper 1.8 deg - YouTube
stepper 0.9: Stepper 0.9 deg - YouTube

I tried reducing the ā€˜microstepsā€™ but no effect on the noise.
I tried to increase the print speed to 500% with stepper 1.8 and it was heavier than
stepper 0.9 at 100% speed.

Where could the problem be?

Thanks for any advice to try.

-Petr

1 Like
2

I have been experiencing the same issue. my first guess was that it might be to do with the resonances of the machine, but removing the stepper and trying to run it in my had just amplified the vibration and noise. the stepper seemed to be fighting itself. Not sure if faulty drivers or what but ill be cross testing some older tmc2208 drivers as well as 1.8 steppers. seems that marlin folks have reported similar issues, and maybe its just the ldo o0.9 steppers that dont play well with tmc drivers.

i remember years ago, first trying the tmc drivers and having a near silent machine. and since then ive managed to f it up with unnecessary changes and ā€˜upgradesā€™ and it now makes a right racket :sweat_smile:
i guess if it aint broke dont fix itā€¦

3

Interesting topic. In theory I would agree that 0.9Ā° steppers have advances to 1.8Ā° steppers.

To bad he is not telling which advanced driver settings he used.

I guess settings tuning might help to make the 0.9Ā° steppers quieter.

That sounds nasty :wink:

@ReXT3D uses 0.9Ā° steppers

maybe he makes a statement here. He even uses 64 microsteps!

Good luck, hcet14

4

The more micro steps you are using the quieter the motors will become.
But you will lose torque as well.

Otherwise keep the microsteps lower and enable interpolation - at least for testing purposes:

interpolate: true

However this will/might cause some more inaccuraciesā€¦

5

True.

I donā€™t know and I have no experience with stepper motors.

Disagrees that stepper motor torque decreases with higher microstepping.

This article states similar

ā€œIā€™ve seen this article (https://www.faulhaber.com/fileadmin/user_upload/Support/dff_200276_whitepaper_microstepping_8cb.pdf) before, but most people donā€™t fully understand what it means. You DO NOT lose torque or accuracy by increasing the number of stepsā€¦
The article says ā€œthe INCREMENTAL torque per microstep drops off drasticallyā€.ā€

6

I think there needs to be some clarity in terms of semantics in this statement. For total torque and position over a full step, you will have applied the same total torque and the position at the end of the full step is the same regardless of the number of microsteps.

However, the lower incremental torque with more microsteps means that you might not get complete or any movement for a microstep and then a jump after an additional microstep (or more) when the added incremental torque is sufficient to overcome the friction in the system. This may or may not be noticeable in your system.

Iā€™ve never seen an analysis of the actual movement differences between varying numbers of microsteps in a mechanical system that would show what is the practical limit to microsteps.

2 Likes
7

Well, @DrumClock is experiencing stepper resonance. Every stepper motor has it. The magnitude (and the acoustics) of it will depend on the specific stepper motor and the mass (inertia) that it is moving. You can read about it here (and in many other places):

What is stepper motor resonance and how can it be avoided?
Solutions to Reduce Stepper Motor Resonance

In practice, my own experience has been that 0.9 degree steppers are more likely to resonate when used at stepping rates typically used in my 3D printers. This applies both to my heavily modified CR-10S Pro and my Voron 2.4 that uses 0.9 degree LDO A/B steppers. I have not spent much time on it to determine exactly why, beyond avoiding stepping rates close to this resonance. However, as one of the above linked articles suggest, the magnitude of this resonance can be somewhat decreased by increasing the micro-stepping, but it cannot be totally eliminated.

When trying to avoid the resonant frequency by changing the stepping rate (print speed), DO NOT change the print speed by full multiples. Chances are that you will land in harmonic frequency band (range) which will also excite the same resonance. So, if you hear resonance at 50 mm/s, try adjusting the print speed to 55, 60 or 65 mm/s, but not to 25 mm/s or 100 mm/s.

Coincidentally, approximately 50 mm/s in XY plane was quite noisy on the Voron 2.4 when using the original LDO-42STH40-2004MAH(VRN) 0.9 degree steppers, but the revised LDO-42STH48-2004MAH(VRN) 0.9 degree steppers are much quieter overall and tend to resonate a different frequency. I have not bothered mapping their resonance, because it is not anywhere bad enough to bother me. In addition, the 1.8 degree Z steppers also resonate and can be quite loud on the Voron at certain Z feed rates, but I donā€™t recall what the rates are since I configured them out (meaning the homing speed and max speed are not anywhere near the stepper resonance).

Note that @dmbutyugin proposed a potential firmware based mitigation for stepper resonance here:

[Proposal] Forbidden velocities for printer steppers

Cheers,
Peter.

1 Like
8

i tested a lot of 0,9 steppers regarding noise and vibrations. ( moons, ldo, stepper online ā€¦ )
the ā€œultimate breakthroughā€ of the 0,9 degree stepper motors was this motor:

Wantai 42BYGHM810

running with these settings ( 48V and external 5160 Mellow Fly 48V HV TMC5160 https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005004229433552.html - Improvment with sound and vibrations also with 24V and internal drivers )

[tmc5160 stepper_x]
diag1_pin: PC1
cs_pin: PD5
spi_software_miso_pin: PE15
spi_software_mosi_pin: PE13
spi_software_sclk_pin: PE14
sense_resistor: 0.033
interpolate: false
run_current: 1.7
hold_current: 1.7
driver_TBL: 1
driver_TOFF: 2

[stepper_x]
step_pin: PD4
dir_pin: !PD3
enable_pin: !PD6
microsteps: 16
rotation_distance: 40
#rotation_distance: 39.9
full_steps_per_rotation: 400
endstop_pin: ^!PC1
position_endstop: 0
position_min: 0
position_max: 297
homing_speed: 75
step_pulse_duration: 0.000000100

PS: 75mm/s and 150mm/s and so on is a very good speed for corexy

/edit:

Made a short Video, print sound is louder as in real live ( you can compare it with the fan sound - fan sound and print sound are about the same in real live )

Printer Settings:
Travelspeed: 800mm/s
Travelacceleration: 20k
Printspeed ( all Walls/Prinmoves ): 150mm/s
Printacceleration ( Infill + Innerwall ): 10k
Printacceleration ( Outerwall ): 2k

This sound level is with X and Y 16!! microsteps

This stepper motor is a beast!! Give it a try, its worth, believe me :slight_smile:

1 Like
9

Did anybody of you try mechanical dampers?

Kind regards, hcet14

1 Like
10

I have not. Instead I do my best to configure the resonance outā€¦

1 Like
11

Iā€™d strongly recommend against. You do not want to insert something that has an intentional play in your drive train.
On each (de-)acceleration this thing will cause a displacement that returns as soon as the (de-)acceleration is over

2 Likes
12

Best solution is to take a Motor with low resonance - - > low Inductance and low resistance: Wantai 42BYGHM810

1 Like
13

Do you have a datasheet of that stepper?

Thanks, hcet14

14

Here is the datasheet

1 Like
15

Unfortunately there is no torque curve in the datasheet. Typically such low resistance and low inductance motors have weak torque curves, i.e. reaching their nominal torque very late

16

Hi, thank you all very much for your posts.
Unfortunately, the 0.9 stepper disappointed me a lot and I stay with the 1.8 stepper.

Petr

17

now that the prusa mk4 is using tmc2130 drivers with 0.9 steppers, and presumably has a stealthchop mode, i wonder what their secret is to having such a quiet and fast machine. You can see in their benchy video that its very quiet and very quick. I have used the TMC claculation sheet and applied the resultant chopper settings to my klipper config, and it improved things a tiny bit for stealthchop, but nowhere near enough to be quieter than spreadcycle during printing and particularly travel moves. What is prusaā€™s secret sauce?

18

Hi,
I got a response to this problem from Trinamic

You can try to increase the step frequency as you increase the microstep res.
You can experiment with the TSTEP parameter to achieve less noisy performance.

But the TSTEP value is not in the 2209 driver parameters.

19

Do you have a datasheet of that stepper?

20

I think it was changed 2 weeks ago.