Maker Select Plus, 1.00mm Nozzle, Heat from Motor(s), and Klipper Philosophies

General Discussion
1

Basic Information:

Printer Model: Monoprice Maker Select Plus
MCU / Printerboard: AR100/STM/Recore
klippy.log (1.4 MB)

Describe your issue: Trying w/ unknown parts (due to not altering what “may” already work…

…

  1. I have a Monoprice Maker Select Plus: discontinued or the same as the Wanhao i3 (please let me know if people need links)
  2. I use a Recore board: Recore A7 - iagent
  3. I have a 1.00mm nozzle and I am currently trying to configure things correctly…

I measured 70mm of filament. I heated the filament by way of the hotend. I then ran the G91 and then G1 E50 F60 command.

I measured 25mm leftover or from the top of the extruder body to the marked line.

So, 70mm - 25mm = 45mm

Then, my first assumption was 34 like another printer I have currently. So…

34 * 45 / 50 = 3.06mm and if I am off, please let me know. E50 is the extrusion but at the Feedrate of 60. Is there more to it? Am I missing something?

I printed my first print w/ the Recore and Klipper along w/ the Maker Select Plus.

Things, all be it odd, printed kind of okay for a mangled mess of ideas I have pushed into existence w/ this printer.

The issues are these:

  1. No time for drying of the filament.
  2. Filament oozes and does not form well at the speed in which I was printing.

Seth

P.S. Anyway, if you or anyone you know has specifics on the printer at hand, please let me know “things.” “Things” can be the hob or why my extruder motor is getting severely hot to the touch.

I looked up Moons’ Motors online, i.e. which this printer has five of them. Anyway, no luck w/ them. They have changed out all their naming schemes.

Update

No matter what nozzle I use so far, the extruder motor gets severely hot to the touch. I cannot touch the motor for more than a few seconds. This is of concern for now but any ideas are welcomed.

Also…the nozzle at 1.00mm is fine for me. I just need to level the bed correctly and lock it in place.

I have not gotten to the point where I can configure the extruder rotation_distance correctly or I think the motor would not get so hot (if this is true, please confirm).

And…I have gone over the slicer settings to slow down the print for the 1.00mm nozzle. At first, it worked but then the adhesion came into play and the lowering of the hotend to the bed for the prints only allowed for skipping of filament and clogging.

Back to square one. If you have any ideas, please let this brother know.

2 
[tmc2209 extruder]
...
run_current = 0.500
hold_current = 0.500
stealthchop_threshold = 250
  • The use of hold_current is not recommended → TMC drivers - Klipper documentation
  • Switching between spread cycle and stealth-chop is not recommended as well → TMC drivers - Klipper documentation
  • Prefer spread-cycle
  • Your run_current should be fine for pancake steppers and not lead to any heat issues. If it is something bigger, the run_current might even be too low
  • Usage of a pancake stepper on the extruder typically needs an extruder that is designed with a pancake stepper in mind, WRT gearing etc. E.g. Orbiter et al.
  • Check your extruder mechanically. Maybe something is blocking / hard going and thus leading to
  • Finally: Pancake stepper can get hotter than you can touch. Measure its temperature. It should stay below 80 °C. Some HT models with Class H rating can even go to 180 °C, but you will want to avoid this as over 80 °C you might get issues with filaments that have a low glass transition temperature, e.g. PLA
3

Hello and Okay,

@Sineos , I have been reading the docs. on these ideas. I added a 24v 0.10A fan to handle the heat.

I am printing now. After a clog and some rework, the machine is up. Okay…

I have been reading the TMC2209 page on all its workings. I have the .pdf available and I am trying to make sure things are as tight as can be for now.

Seth

P.S. I will fine tune the machine in time. For now, I am amazed it is printing w/ the 1.00mm nozzle and “stock parts.” Also, the fan has done wonders w/ a heatsink for this extruder motor.

I did read where the hold_current: ____ was not recommended for the TMC2209 stepper drivers…

I also read other distinct ideas on the drivers in question.

Update

What would an odd bzzt sound be from the extruder stepper when printing and maneuvering? Too much filament being extruded or awkwardness from hold_current:?

4

Hard to judge, since I cannot hear it. If it is skipping steps due to overload, it would be a clicking / grinding sound.
Try increasing microstepping, e.g. to 64

1 Like
5

@Sineos ,

Hey man, Seth here. Okay so, I have an issue that may have already been defined. I am looking through the older discourse items from when we had a discussion on rotation_distance for the Z_Axis.

I put the rotation_distance on 8 for the Z and Z1 steppers. This idea “works” but when I print, I miss a couple steps in Z. I mean to say that the Z_Axis goes higher than requested in the print on the second layer.

Seth

6
  • Just to be on the same page
    • “Missing steps” typically means that your stepper cannot follow the movement and is skipping steps that it should have performed. This is a serious thing and usually due to overloading the stepper the one or the other way
    • If you mean, that you are not happy with the resulting Z-Height of the print, then it is a different story
  • I would strongly recommend against playing with rotation_distance
  • Final Z-Height of the printed model depends on many factors: Z-Offset, Bed mesh, first layer quality, shrinkage of the material etc. These are all things you cannot and should not tune away with rotation_distance
1 Like
7

Okay @Sineos ,

I tried w/ rotation_distance of the extruder motor w/ the ideas I found on the docs. I am still getting negative feedback from the extruder motor, e.g. pulling or pushing the filament incorrectly and heating to an absurd level.

Outside of that, I will show the final print in a bit. This print is the best one yet but still needs work due to excessive heat dissipation from the extruder motor.

I am not quite sure how to go about making the extruder motor understand its correct paths.

I tried the 70mm - 25mm = 45mm and then 34 * 45 / 50 which equals 3.06.

Everything I have tried is incorrect due to me realizing the heat factor of the motor and lack of motor ideas. If anyone uses this motor, please try to figure out what exactly are the specs. on it.

Moons' Stepping Motor 
Type: C17HD40102-01N
60752490

I found many people selling this motor online but w/ lackthereof specifications.

I changed the micro-stepping to 64, erased the blocks of hold_current and stealth-chop.

Do no get me wrong. The print, this one that is in the works, seems to be doing well so far but I know it is no doing well b/c of the heat of the extruder motor.

Seth

P.S. Any advice is welcomed. XYZ and Z1 are doing well now. E is not. It is skipping and this means to me that the rotation distance is a bit off or way off. @Sineos , I know what you said about having to manage more than rotation_distance to get Z_axes working correctly. Right now, I am more worried about this E_stepper.

8

As already indicated:

  • These steppers do get really hot
  • This is not an issue as long as they do not get too hot, i.e. a shell temperature of >80 °C (you can roughly assume +30 °C core temperature in the stepper)
  • My personal way forward for calibrating E-Steps:
    1. Separate hotend from the extruder
    2. Extrude some filament so that it sticks out of the extruder’s outlet
    3. Cut it cleanly with a fine side-cutter
    4. Extrude 300 mm or even more (more length == less measurement error)
    5. Measure it in-place or even cut it cleanly if easier to measure
    6. Calculate new rotation_distance
    7. Repeat 1. to 5. to validate. If still off, repeat 1. to 7.
  • To complete the routine of dialing in (I do these steps on each new filament)
    1. Determine printing temperature with a heat-tower (my main focus is less bridging or looks but layer adhesion → Depends on the parts you want to print, hotter often leads to better layer adhesion at the expense of aesthetics or bridging behavior)
    2. Determine extrusion factor and z-offset via 30 x 30 x 2 mm plates, e.g. PLA needs much more squish than ASA / ABS
    3. Determine Pressure Advance
2 Likes
9

I will listen…but first. Something from the far side?

Some odd video from clipchamp…hopefully it is easily seen. If not, I will think of another way.

Seth

P.S. @Sineos , thank you for the advice and pointers. I will get on it after this print is finished.

So, this is the error in printing each time...

odd
odd1920×945 209 KB

Where the blue rectangle is located is where an uprise in filament should be but then the print just stays attached to the bed and the Z_Axis rises w/out further filament printing. Frustrating…yes.

I will break for now until I can research more and try your 1 - 7.

10

The entire print is looking massively over-extruded.

Edit:
Which could also explain your extruder getting hot. If the extruder is permanently trying to push an large amount out, it is basically working against a wall

Edit 2:
Be sure to check you entire process chain:

  1. Slicer settings: Is the 1.0 nozzle correctly reflected there? Wall width, etc?
  2. Extruder calibration
  3. Extrusion factor

Edit 3:
Also a 1.0 mm nozzle will require a very powerful high-flow hotend that is capable of providing the needed throughput.
Do not forget that the radius is a quadratic function with respect to the volume: While your diameter between a 0.4 mm and 1 mm nozzle increases by factor 2.5, the volume increases by a factor of 6.25!

1 Like
11

Hello…

@Sineos …I went back to 0.6mm b/c the 1.0mm was giving me trouble. There is also another aspect to the entire process I have not been upfront about currently.

  1. My heater block
    a. Has a heater and a sensor on the same side
    b. MK10 style of a heater block w/ a 24v heater at some wattage (probably 40 or 50w)
    c. is stuck for now on the machine w/ the pinching block that the throat is attached to being sort of stuck

Anyway, I am still learning. Thank you for making me understand. I saw the Edit: 3.

I was promoting a three base and three top layer print at 40% lined infill.

I found this print on Printables, e.g. which will take the better part of 6.6kg most likely.

Just to recap:

  • The 1.0mm is out
  • The 0.6mm is in now and that is how I achieved the print to the point of Z_Axes errors w/ the extruder giving in…

I think the extruder is faulty so far b/c of my heater block having the heater and sensor on the same side. The hotend and nozzle does not get crossed by the heater to the sensor (if that makes sense).

Seth

P.S. The simplistic heater is stock, i.e. probably will get exchanged out. The sensor is not stock and does not fit in its required outer area of the heater block, e.g. SAMTEC.

Update

The rotation_distance on the extruder needs to get a workaround for this printer and I cannot find out why for now.

I have dual, Z_Axis motors w/ a rotation_distance of 8. I command the machine to move 20mm or 45mm and the bottom of the hotend/nozzle is exactly at that point commanded.

So, you are probably right about the over extrusion. I will research this idea more in time.

12

In 3D printing you typically talk about the volumetric flow of a hotend / extruder.

It is calculated with:

volumetric flow = speed * line width * layer height

This means:

0.4 nozzle 0.6 nozzle 1.0 nozzle
line width [mm] 0.48 0.72 1.2
speed [mm/s] 60 60 60
layer heigth [mm] 0.2 0.2 0.2
volumetric flow [mm³/s] 5.76 8.64 14.4

Standard hotends will max out at about 11 mm³/s for PLA

While not ideal, this is a not an uncommon design choice and does not have a major impact in a regular scenario and low velocities

1 Like
13

@Sineos ,

My day is about to start. I will be away. Blah.

Seth

P.S. I will reinvent this 3D producing mechanism next time around. There has to be a near “perfect” scenario for this printer to print random things and this is what I am looking to attain. I will research some more after my day and look more into the klipper docs. Thank you again for supporting the cause and I appreciate your efforts in making me understand more.

1 Like